Your grasp of basic biology, or rather a glaring lack of it, continues to astound.

Stop trolling and be nice to put some footage, so the forum could be amazed by your decency.

Oh wow, you actually asked to stop trolling.

but of course, how can could I react to the shit above where some joe says Vasserman's knowledge of biology is fake and gay? Everything could be fake, including me and you, but not the god of knowledge Anatole and the stuff he claims! Anatole not appruv! Galaksy iz in danger!

Surely, Anatoley's power cannot be underesteemated!

In the end, they are all hopeless to the inevitability of the void.

In nex parilitas.

Hi guys, my first post here!
I'm your typical male North American 17 year old high school student here to offer his opinion on a topic that seems to have been derailed seriously.
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Ok, here goes nothing...
I don't doubt that The Void is influenced by some kind of sexism - there are women put into a category that has a moniker designated for females exclusively and men put into their category in the same fashion. They are each assigned different roles that we can often relate to in our real lives, like that lady in the previous post said something about the maternal and paternal roles given to the sisters and brothers. Unless there are an equal proportion of females to males in every category of sisters and brothers - and also a renaming of said categories - there will be a tinge of sexism in the game.
Crap...where was I going with this...
OH YA
In my eyes, there's nothing wrong with this sexism. It's natural that this game shows off as a product of its culture, I can only remember a few matriarchal societies, and I believe that Russia was not one of them. But to make it clear, I don't support sexism, but nor do I condone the works of people and groups such as Ice Pick Lodge for doing this; its giving us something to relate to within the culture of our current day; if we go back way into the Eisenhower era women were expected to stay in the house, rear the children and make sure dinner is prepared for when the father comes home from work. I think if we took a glimpse from way back when and compared it to today, I think we've made a huge progress between sexual inequalities. I understand the argument to make this game a stride forward in the right direction, but I don't think that this game really has the resources to afford such a statement, nor the influence to create an impact on cultures worldwide.

Completely off topic, but even though it is easily recognizable that women get shafted when being compared to men in terms of salaries and acquiring positions of power, don't women also get pluses because of their sex? I mean, stuff like free drinks at a bar, or holding a door, or having free security in a public environment. (socially UNACCEPTABLE for a man to punch a woman)

I actually liked the male bias. It provided the game enough room to explore on a more deep relation between player x character.

From another point of view, the ontologic difference between male and female in this game: they are different in function in the game's world, and their personalities, provide a different span over the genre discussion, so I thought this to be an advantage.

Frankly I feel the women are portrayed much better in the game than the men.

They're both at the extremes of stereotypes, the women are beautiful, helpless and wise, the brothers horrific, warlike and dogmatic.

I wouldn't say it's sexist simply because this extreme contrast is integral to the nature of life in the void. (Ok maybe the camera obscuras of the sisters were a bit much but still =P)

First post here!

The Void's entire mechanic is about passive and active states, and the dichotomy of Colour, so central to the game itself, explains it. The Sisters fill their hearts with Nerva, the active stuff used in fighting, Glyph drawing, actions. The brothers take in Lympha, which is the stuff you fill your hearts with that gives you passive bonuses. Each side of the equation gives something the other needs - I don't think Sisters and Brothers are males and females in and of themselves, they're just representations of the give-and-take, active-passive dichotomy that forms the core of classical Western sexual thinking.

The player is not one or the other, however. He has the power to give /and/ take. He barely qualifies as a he, as in game terms he has the power to give and take, like a Colour hermaphrodite. In game terms, at least, he has the powers of both sexes - he can cause new Colour to grow in a realm and use it to fight, draw glyphs, act in his own world even if it's limited. I call into question the notion that the Guest is fundamentally male. Personally I think it's all a metaphor for the creative process. Mystics and artists alike around the world take on the powers of a male and female gender, subsuming the powers of both, often creating a gender or genders all their own. We in the West are a little weird for only having two genders.

So what is the Void in the context of the artist-as-hermaphrodite metaphor? Is it a chauvinistic appropriation of female powers by males who want to marginalize women even further? Or a portrayal of the unique and gender-defying act of artistic creation that defies and repels traditional notions of gender?

Hi!
Am I the only female player in this forum? I think there's plenty of guys discussing, but is there any girl?
As a female player, I just can tell one thing about sexism in the Void: it's not worst than any other game you can find elsewhere...
It's true that lot of players are men, especially in MMORPG for example. And the design characters is oriented this way: even an undead in WOW can be "sexy", how it could be in real life (if we consider that we could one day meet someone undead... hm. Creepy)? When you are a girl playing that kind of game, you should take a male character, if you don't want to experiment "Eve teasing"... very sad... Look at Bayonetta, on PS3: do you think people buy it for the beautiful landscapes, and all these cute butterflies when the character jump? Errr... I don't think so...
So, it's quite true that in The Void, the nudity doesn't bring anything in the plot or in the action... it's a free "exposure". I think it could have been avoided, and make the Sisters more beautiful, dressed like strange princess, something like that...
But the experience of the game is more important I think than those "glamorous" scenes offered to us... I really don't think that male players oh this game play just to see "nude sisters"... There are a lot of other, cheaper and faster ways to see nude women! This game is so difficult that I think you really forget fast the nude ones to struggle to survive
Brothers are "dressed", ok, but they are depicted in a diabolic and disgusting way, something violent, ugly... could it be sexism too, to symbolize "men" that way? Like awful "ersatz" of humanity, oposite to the apparent kindness of the Sisters?
Sisters are just symbols, like brothers are. I really don't think that The Void is the sexist.

There's sexism everywhere, and everyday, women can be "attacked" by some very, very bad pictures ( the "Porno Chic" tendance in advertising, last year, was... a good example I think!). Sexism makes a lot of money... even in Videogame's World. And it's a pity. I just don't think that The Void could be compare to other games.

To conclude, I won't stop playing, and I'll continue to choose "Coach" or "Ellis" for playing Left For Dead 2 (even if Rochelle is the best one, lol!)

Sorry for all the mistakes, but I'm a french female gamer, which seems to be a little "rare"

PS: funny... my boyfriend really likes looking the screen when I'm playing to The Void, but not at all when I'm playing to Portal... could you explain that?

I'm pretty sure we can establish the void as sexist. It has women with size E boobs (at least) and all of them naked if you put enough heart and soul into it (ey ey ey). But the real question is, what of it? What difference would it actually make if they had small breasts and fully coated in eskimo clothing? This game is not in Heat magazine or other magazines aimed at impressionable women or teenagers on what is 'hot', so this game has no deep impact on any large proportion of female society, so any feminists that do have qualms with this sort of material...start somewhere else.

To be offended does not give right for action, nor does it give someone any sort of power or privilege, so to be offended brings nothing more to the table than the dislike of something. If I have explained it badly, then I shall let Stephen Fry do it for me > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnSByCb8lqY

Well, clearly you paid very little attention to amount of time and detail put into these women, as every single one of them has a different pair of breasts. If you tell me that Una has a size E, I will slap you.
Although, I do agree with your Stephen Fry argument X)

@Fantomayte: I'm a woman *decides that Odong avatar is not girly enough*

I find that there is nothing offensively sexist present in The Void. Rather, I feel that it plays off of sexist stereotypes to convey a message. This is not an uncommon strategy in art and advertising. All of the Sisters are meant to represent "mother" figures, therefore it only makes sense for them to all be female.
As for the nudity, I always believed it to represent their weakened state. In Egyptian art, being nude showed your status as a slave, it was meant to be disgraceful. I think the same idea is present here, in that the Sister are being oppressed by their ruling Brothers, most of which are clothed.
If we do follow the train of thought the Sisters are naked purely to tease the male audience, then why not make the Brothers nude and sexy for the females? The main character isn't hard on the eyes and we get to scroll all up and down his body.

Long answer short: In a game like this, that's more art than game, you can't just brush things off as "no meaning." I think most of us can agree that everything was meant to convey some form of a deeper meaning, and to say that the Sisters are only naked as selling points is... rather offensive

(laughs at djkid's new, girl-ified avatar )

I admit I exaggerated, however my point still stands that a lot have nice firm boobies that stay in position.

There is a theme I see very commonly repeated in the arguements put forth in this discussion thread: equating "sexual" with "sexist".
Yes, all the sisters are seen naked, and most of them meet the common standards of beauty and attraction, but are they really being degraded and treated as objects in the story context?
Is it not fitting that, when you speak directly to someone's soul, it should appear naked to you, aside from the restraints placed upon it from within and without?
I always found the nudity symbolic -- when you've filled a sister's hearts and earned her trust and restraint, she shows you all of herself -- by which I mean she shows her personality honestly. She has become naked to you in the metaphorical sense, and so I see the sister's unobscured nudity as a visual symbol reinforcing that metaphor.

To move beyond the artistic nudity, I have seen some reasonable points raised about the way the sisters are portrayed as being helpless and manipulative, but it always seemed clear to me that the situation was forced upon them by the oppressive environment they were born into, so that the only way they can even get their most basic needs met is by tricking someone else into doing it for them.
And furthermore, the environment it happens in is so nightmarish in all other respects, it seems to me that the overall message is that the gender roles portrayed are also nightmarish and terrible.

But that's just my two cents.

Here is my 2 cents on this.

Reading the last 5 pages of this discussion, I noticed some interesting notions being brought up, but also a lot of senseless and trite talk about sexism in general, faminism, the nature of society and the state of art. While I do see the afformented topics as important in their own right, I fail to see the need to link them to a simple adventure game and discuss them at great lenghts in reference t this.

No sense to make it all political. Thus I'll limit my own comment to the game as a game.

Nudity:
While I don't feel it to be excessive at all (nothing you won't see on a Goya or Titian painting), I did feel that it was often pointless and sometimes maybe unwarranted.
I could see a point in having a few of the sisters naked, both in physical and in soul form (to depict sensuality, or purity for example). However, having each and every single one of them naked regardless of personality, style and altitude seems forced and needless.
The gameplay element of "feed them more color to remove more particles and see them nude" feels to me especially tacky, corny and "gamey". Somehow made it feel like a strip poker game. If I'd have to remove one "gender issue" from the game, I'd definitally drop the whole particle striptease.

If you ask me, it would make more sense and be in better taste to have some of the sisters naked to begin with, while some other sisters being fully clothed from stage 1 to stage 4. Would add variety, make sisters more distinguishable from one another and (my personal feeling) be less tacky.

Gender depiction (warning, some minor SPOILERS ahead):
I do feel that I know why all the "sisters" are female. There is a certain hint to the sisters being those who create, who bring the colors to upper realms changing or even creating them. (Fun fact, note that Eli questions the "creator" nature of sisters). As such, the sisters are female as its a reference to their ability to "give birth", to "create". Its a Jungian archetype if you want to call it that. The authors IMHO used that archetype consciously. We may have our own opinions if its "cool or not", but I think we can all sensibly agree that it is rather coherent in relation to the whole narrative.

The "brothers" being all male however is much less clear and rather confusing to be honest. Note the extent of "robotization" some of them went through, plus the fact that some sisters mention that "sisters sent to the nightmare become brothers". Thus I find it suprising that all retain visibly male looks (and in the polish version all have rather manly, even "butch" voice actors), its all not really that coherent. I'd imagine that some of them should be noticably asexual due to the extent of their "mechanization", while it would make sense for some to look a bit feminine, due to their "sister origin".

As for the protagonist, it is entirely subjective, but I myself feel it would feel best if the protagonist was depicted as asexual. The protagonist is often described as being "above" the void and its denizens and there are some references to him being the creator or even God. Again, it may be a personal or cultural bias on my hand, but I associate diety-status with genderlessness and If I were to chose, I'd make the protagonist asexual. It could also add some flavor with some sisters (depending on their beliefs, personalities and altitudes) referring to the protagonist as obviously male, whie some assuming it is naturally female.

Yay,necroposting!Cause I am soo sleepy.
I don't find game sexist,but naked women in it and as a bonus on a site (in a minigame) bother me.
djkid
Errm...in some way,Brothers are sexy.*hides*

Why does everything always have to come back to sexism? It's ridiculous.

Naked women do not equal sexism.

Pit said a few interesting things when I visited him straight after opening Ole's first heart, for instance "Montgolfier, where are you? Do you still affirm that his nature is different to that of Sisters?", possibly an important phrase in a feminist reading.
Considering that presenting a situation is not the same as advocating it, the ambiguity of the spirit and the potential threat to the status quo rattles the Brothers and is important in our overall understanding of the underlying subtext of symbols as presented.

Playing The Void I saw an interesting art style and architecture design throughout. I saw various brothers and sisters where the sisters tended to have personalities that were in some cases endearing and others made me hostile towards them. I had favourites. I had sympathy for some, contempt for others. By the end of the story I thought that the remaining sisters wouldn't do as good a job as the player character and having defeated most of the brothers I chose for the player character to carry on and ascend. Nameless Sister though I would have considered due to the bond and the subsequent perception that created in me the player.

I didn't agonise over gender representations, or feel that it needed to meet an affirmative action quota, or make a social statement. There was instead a narrative, characters and a situation. Unless hitting a quota would add to the narrative and experience I see no reason to make a cursory "progressive" gesture. You had choices and I made the choice that I felt was best based on the interactions I had with the characters - not social viewpoints. As has been touched on the bond that can be created with The Nameless Sister due to her early nurturing role can define the experience and viewpoint for the rest of the game. They're all trying to survive, it just came down to how I viewed the way they tried to. Ava was lucky she wasn't "Vampired" Una was to be treated with respect.

Same mindset I take into most games. In Mass Effect 3 I didn't help out and sympathise with Cortez because there are a small number of gay characters in games and they must be preserved to meet a quota. I helped him because he was a part of my crew, was in obvious pain and I wanted to help him. I left Ashley on Virmire not because I was afraid she was going to steal my ship, become an Admiral and institute an anti-male policy onboard but because I sympathised with Kaidens' character more and wanted to see him make the most of his life. I'm a straight male and played a female Shepard who chose to be with Garrus. I found the character arc interesting, engaging and handled well. I didn't feel that because I am a male I have to play a male character. Morrowind. I've played male and female characters of various ethical and moral standpoints. If it started chucking quota crap at me though... it'd be dropped like a hot potato.

Dragging social agendas into everything without thought to how they'll impact the design is only going to make them watered down pools of tepid dross. If a situation has been crafted with forethought with a sound basis or goal in mind then adding in token characters based on their gender/sexuality/race/favourite childrens tv show demeans the creation and treats its audience as slow witted fools that need to be lectured. If something is made with that exact goal in mind then it can work - good luck with walking the knife edge of reasoned debate and browbeating obsession though... If it's a tacked on afterthought then it reeks of arguably good intentions crapping all over good, consistent design.

Look at Katawa Shoujo, disability - how people adapt to it and how we respond to it was a key part of the game. It wasn't a case of "oh dear... we need to make sure that 15% of the characters have a disability to hit the quota" it was a core part of the concept, the characters and the method to elicit an emotional connection and response. It also got a cult following and a very favourable reaction. Yes there were sex scenes. Where the forums filled with tales of horn dogs jerking off over them? No. They were full of players talking about the emotional impact that they had experienced. Would it have been interesting to play a female lead? Sure. Would it have hurt the design? Nope. You would be playing a character. Not a social agenda.

If a team decide to make a title that is based round social definitions of gender and it is a driving aspect of the design then best of luck to them and hopefully it'll be an interesting title.

Chucking a couple of gay guys, a girl in a wheelchair and a feisty but career focused woman who's just "trying to have it all" into the game, swapping the genders of a couple of characters after some focus testing because you're afraid you might not hit your advertising demographic... That's just sliding down a slope to a shit product.