*HUGE SPOILERS BELOW - DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T COMPLETED THE GAME!*

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Okay, this is an important post. I'm looking for answers.

I dedicated 2 weeks to playing through Pathologic for the first time. I really loved the game and got deeply involved in it. I took the world and its characters very seriously. But when I got to the final day of the game, something bad happened... In fact, two bad things happened...

1. I found the two kids inside the polyhedron: The kids who had a sandcastle model of the town, which they were playing with. The kids told me that THEY had created the town, and it had come to life (as fantasies tend to come to life, when they are created inside the polyhedron). Then they told me (The Bachelor) that I was one of their dolls, who had come to life. The same with Klara and Burakh (and the Inquisitor and the General, I suppose).

My reaction to this: I was upset! I had taken the world so seriously. Not just the town, but the Bachelor and his back-story. His research centre. And now I was suddenly being told that basically, all this was FAKE?! Did the Bachelor even have a past, or had he only come into existence one day when the kids started playing their game? Were all his memories false?

Over time, I have given the ending a lot of thought. I've thought about it from all kinds of different angles, but I'm still not happy with it. To me, this revelation reminds me of one of the worst endings you can find in stories: "It was all a dream." Personally, I'd like to think this town had a long history. I don't want to believe it was all a stupid kid's game, and that the three heroes were only dolls. That really sucks

To anyone reading this: What are your thoughts on the ending? Your interpretations? Your feelings?

2. To make matters worse: I went to the theatre and talked to the beak-faced executor and his skinny, white-masked pal. They told me that the two kids in the polyhedron were puppets too. Of course they were. Because really, this was all just a silly computer game, that I (the player) was playing.

My reaction to this: Why do I need to be *told* that I'm playing a computer game? I *know* that! I don't need to be reminded of it.

A good story makes you believe in the world that it creates, and Pathologic definitely made me believe in the world. Then, on the final day, it tries to spoil this by telling me: "This world is not real. It's just a children's toy. In fact, it's just a computer game."

I don't want to be misunderstood. Pathologic is actually one of the best games I've ever played (and I will be playing it again). But why did the game-world have to be broken on the final day, like this?

Well, for Klara's endings things are somewhat different. Also, have you seen the REAL ending after the ending? Not to spoil to much - it's a scripted on the game engine scene, not a pre-rendered one.

P.s. - I'll write more later...

Yes, I saw the (in-engine) ending where all three characters are sitting, slumped in the theatre, with button-eyes and dolls all around them.

It was an even clearer way of saying "This was all just a game. The events didn't really matter. YOU WERE PLAYING A GAME!" Therefore (even though the scene was visually nice), it didn't make me very happy

I'm really interested to get your opinion on all this, LxR. I know that the game was meant to be making some kind of statement about the interaction between the players and developers, but I'm not sure exactly what this statement was meant to be....?

What are your thoughts?

Actually, you are absolutely correct - everything began from a manifesto, that computer games are eventually become a new form of art to conclude the logical row of literature, visual arts, movies... The major difference from other form of arts is that in a computer game the player takes part in creating the masterpiece (not a good word, but I can't think of suitable one). Since the manifesto was announced, our studio CEO, the core, the lone author of all the texts in Pathologic - Nikolai Dybowskiy has done 2 speeches at KRI (Russian game-dev conference), which describe various "building blocks" for such games... I might just sometime translate them. Anyhow, Pathologic was our first try to make something to set an example for others... So, I guess it's only logical to remind the player that this is just a game, and he has the freedom of choice, because he's one o the game creators, despite the nasty children, playing plague. Actually, the game was supposed to feature a vaster dialogue system, in which the replyes would affect events greatly, but at some point the idea was abandoned due to lack of time.

When I first finished Pathologic I wasn't actually part of the team, so I didn't know what was what and I do remember my reaction towards the ending: I've though that the authors are trying to point, that though you can live in imaginary worlds and be a decisive creator, you must also remember, that reality is far more important. I guess, the ending does somewhat spoil the submerging into the Town, but it's for the best... Now I'd probably say that the ending is supposed to shock the player, and through the shock pass some important ideas, like a good book does. Like in the Haruspicus scenario I remember clearly a great dialogue reply, when Burah states, that he doesn't care, wether he is manipulated or not, when the manipulation doesn't contradict his own targets...

Well, also I remember to be quite disappointed by the ending myself. ) But after some thinking, I think everything is in its own place... The was a game before Pathologic, that featured a similar ending - it's Vangers. Also a very weird Russian game, which may now be considered freeware, I guees... It's old. )) Really old. ))

I'm getting quite offtopic here, so I'll wrap it up. ) Hope those scrambled thought help. And maybe we can argue about this... I'm not 100% sure about all this myself even now. )

Thanks! That was a pretty insightful reply

I also understood the point being made: "This is only a game, and real life is much more important." It's quite a good thing to remember, but I think most people are quite aware of it - At least, I hope so!

One of the things that I thought was so good about Pathologic was the way that I could identify with the feelings of the character (in this case, Dankowsky). He was skeptical, confused, shocked and surprised by the strange world he found himself in. So was I. At the end, when he met the two children, he was incredibly angry at this idea of being a 'puppet.' He didn't want to believe it. I felt the same way. It was a natural reaction, and the game did a great job of making me feel the same way as Dankowsky did!

So over time, I've thought about the ending a bit more, and come to terms with it. I would prefer a different ending, but there it is. Besides, there are still some possibilities:
1. The children were lying. They did not create the town. Why should I believe them?
2. The children didn't create the town or the characters, but they *did* create the disease.
3. The children were telling the truth. They created everything, including the three heroes.

Relating this (option number 3) to the 'real world': We don't know for sure why *we* are alive. We have theories and scientific evidence about evolution and the creation of matter, but we can't explain everything... What is life, really? What is consciousness? Why am *I* a conscious being? How did the universe come into existence? And what is the universe really?

For all we know, we could be playthings for a couple of kids playing god

I'd be interested to read some more from Nikolai Dybowskiy - Are his speeches available anywhere online in printed form (so I can Babelfish 'em)?

One more thing I wanted to say:
I have viewed games as an art-form alongside movies and books for a long time. I'm pleased that they have become more popular over the last few years and people are taking them more seriously. But the level of writing and storytelling is still generally about the same as a regular popcorn action movie. There's rarely anything to rival great literature.

Pathologic *definitely* has the best told story I've experienced in a computer game, and playing it was really an experience that was closer to immersing myself in a great novel. I think games have a lot more possibilities to offer than any other art-form, because of the element of interaction and the ability to get closely involved with multiple characters within the story (Pathologic, with its three protagonists and their seperate viewpoints, is a great example of this). So you guys are definitely on the right track!

It's just a pity that as technology and game engines get more advanced, they're still generally being used to develop... mindless 3D shooters! The upcoming game, 'Crysis', for instance, features accurate cycles of the sun, perfect shadows, perfectly plotted stars in the sky... But who's really going to notice all that when they're just mowing down as many enemy soldiers as they can? What a waste!

(Anyway, I've talked way too much here! I'll stop now...)

I suggest you the RPG Planescape Torment IMHO one of the best game ever(Game story tell us aboot immortal character Nameless One, who don't remember *nothing*).
And Vangers Although, I don't think this game may be translated into English good. I don't imagined HOW can transleted many specific Vangers jokes...
Sorry for my English. When I read this post, I understand every word, but, when I write myself
(в общем не могу связать двух слов по человечески:) Модераторам просьба поправить, особо выдающиеся перлы, которые наверняка тут есть ).


P.S. By the way, hydra9, Thanks for the very interesting post.

Thanks for your post, Evil Wizard! And your English is fine

Yes... Planescape Torment is one of those games I've always *thought about* playing. I enjoyed all the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale RPGs, so maybe I should give it a try.

I've heard about Vangers, too. The story sounds interesting, but it looks like a simplistic driving game... Hmm... Is it really fun?

Yes, really FUN, IMHO. And driving not as "simplistic" as you thought
I have not enought words to describe gameplay. One of my favorite games, but I understand this not at once. Charecters, game world and slang, at the same time funny and philosophical(especially charecters Buravsic, he is my idol ). The Ending of the game - masterpiece.

Another one game in the Universe of Vangers - Perimeter. It's very interesting and unusual RTS.

These games(Pathologic, Vangers and Perimeter) have one common point - strange(in the good term:)) worlds, storyline and gameplay...
And the Final

One phrase - must play.
You lucky, because original game language - English. All of translation into Russian(pirates translation) not as goos as original. It's important, because 90% Planescape gameplay - dialogues.

Okay, if I can find a cheap copy I'll check it out. I've been reading some more about it, and it does sound very interesting
Yeah I've been complaining about the bad translation of Pathologic into English. I keep forgetting how lucky I am to have so many games written in my native language.

If you don't - PM me... There's always a workaround path, and I myself own an English copy.

That's okay - I just ordered a copy for £2 from amazon.co.uk

I finally finished pathologic as the Bachelor; I saved before making some choices to try out the different endings.


As a sidenote, I had also saved all teh adherents in the town so I got to see teh two prequel discussions as well, one with the children in the sandbox, and the other with the masques; Having had an opportunity to choose the different endings, I was able to see teh scripted adn game engine endings depending on which choices you made. (Again, I really hope to be able to help in reworking teh English translation -- often you feel like you are pulling at the edge of teh idea more than experiencing it, and the impact of teh ending would be greater for English speakers with some fine tuning.)

That said: I actually enjoyed the ending(S). It is not as if the game had not "Broken the fourth wall" before, as they say in movies or books: The characters of the masques had always addressed you both as character, but also as player. The tragedian himself is often your counterpart of the evening masques. At the beginning of teh game they act as tutorial but also reminder that the game is game, and yet not. This kind of etehrialness can be trie if done recklessly or in teh wrong setting -- but in the organic world of Pathologic, where buildings and streets can break out in pustules of disease, where you trade children for "their favorite toys" such as needles and razors -- in such a dystopia, such an interaction makes sense.

Furthermore, the idea that teh game world is a reflection of ideas of others can make for an astoundingly fun game. may I also recommend two other bargain basement games that are quite powerful? SANITARIUM and AMERICAN MCGEE'S ALICE. Sanitarium is a powerful and disturbing game where you wake up from an accident, bandaged, burned beyond almost any recognition, and with no memory; you slip into and out of different worlds -- from the Sanitarium and into nightmare dreamscapes -- in a world that constantly forces you to question which "reality" is actually "true." Alice is more about atmosphere, but again, the characters are not only twists on the original of Lewis Carroll, but in addition represent the title character's experiences as suggested by the opening of the game. (mcGee has put out a few stinkers of late, btu is returning to disturbing take son classics with a new project that re-imagines the world of Oz.)

Anyway, back to our endings question -- consider how often in the game teh choices are as much questions of metaphors as they are not. Was "Simon" ever a real person or was he just an idea? I originally thought it a weird design error that the polyhedron used textures that were from the artists' studio -- until later I realized the polyhedron was what it appeared ot be -- something of an Origami construct, lending to it a notion of even further impossibility.

The fact that the children are the architects of the dream bother me not at all -- I mean, after all, doesn't it make a lot more sense now? The plague is the "Sand Plague." If you remember in teh early days, there is a discussion about something the children in the game world found when playing in the sand box. If you look at some of the playgrounds, in day 1 the sandboxes are just that -- sandboxes. Later in the game they show an unearthed cow skull. It even lends itself to a morbid possibility: Was this fantasy world part of a fevered imagination of two children who were creating their fantasy sandcastle, playing with dolls, who DID discover somethign infectious in their own sandbox -- and the reflection of their own fevered imaginings, and possible dying, are in the town as well? If I was to tinker with a gentle rewrite, I would even make it that depending on the choices, the dolls who were brought to life's actions might help guide the "authorities' parents" (the children's parents) to alert them that their children were ill: In other words, the choices of the puppets may not only save or end the childhood dream, but may have saved or condemned their creators.

Anyway, I find it all food for thought. While I have some quibbles with a few mechanics of pathologic, I truly feel the endings were exactly the kind of experience that were appropriate. endings are always a tricky thing -- rarely can you end a game and help make a player feel as satisfied as they should. (One of the notable exceptions was FALLOUT, also a superior game, where your actions in the end led to a sequence that explained how your actions impacted each section of the game. The expansion to Neverwinter Nights 2, The Mask of teh Betrayer, used a bit of this mechanics too.)

Interesting comments, Father. As it happens, I'm actually just about to complete Pathologic for the second time (this time playing as Burakh). I'm on Day 12 right now. I will probably post a response with some more thoughts after that.

Anyway, it's nice to see someone else coming to the English messageboards and being another devoted fan of this game! Glad you got hold of a copy in America, and liked it so much...

Thank you! Yes, very enthusiastic indeed. Since I used to do game reviews I am happy to evangelize great games; I am right now encouraging my friends to play it, and when i go back to Texas during Christmas, I have 2-3 friends I expect will be "Pathologic-ed" before the end of the Christmas season. One is a pen & paper game designer who used to work for Steve Jackson Studios (Car Wars, Illuminati); she loves all things dark and Lovecraftian -- I know she will absolutely love this game.

In the states one of the best sources for imports is an online company called GoGamer.com. They carry a number of international versions of game, which makes me extremely happy -- when I buy the Witcher, I will get the UK version, as I understand they censored the American one. Grrr.

Okay... So I have now completed Pathologic for the second time. I managed to save all of my (Burakh)'s adherents, as well as Dankovskiy and Klara's. Playing with Burakh is, of course, a totally different adventure. I won't give anything away, but it does expand on the storyline, fill in some extra details and allow you to see a few things in a different light.

Re: The ending. If I'm honest, I still don't like the "It's just a game / You are the player / The characters are merely dolls" thing. As I said before, if I play a game, watch a movie or read a book, I want to believe in the imaginary world the authors have created. I don't need to be reminded that it's a work of fantasy.

That said, however, Pathologic *is* one of my favourite games, even with the ending And the overwhelming thought I had this time was that yes, okay, the three playable characters are just 'dolls' and I'm the person who gets to play with them. I choose (to some extent) what to do with them; I enter into a co-creation of this fantasy realm along with the game's creators. And, really, what's wrong with that? When I want to experience the dying Steppe town, I can choose one of these 'dolls' to play with. Pathologic is a (dark and disease-ridden) toybox... a digital version of some of the games I used to play as a kid. And it's pretty cool that I have the chance to play in such a world.

2hydra9: Well, as usual I have very little time to give a full reply (I almost have a reply to your PM - I've been writing it for a week now %) ) - I just want to note, that the Devotress scenario is drastically different from the rather similar scenarios of the Haruspex and the Bachelor. And it actually features yet another layer between the player and the game - I'll try not to spoil any more, since I really hope to redo the Devotress translation someday - right now I only ask of you - DON'T start the Devotress scenario. If you thought the translation was bad before - this will bring the meaning of "bad translation" to a whole new level.

2FatherAzerun: I'm glad, you liked the game and think that it's worth retranslating, BUT. You have come at a very bad time - we are finishing our second project Tension right now and have no time at all to even accept the help you've provided. Don't misunderstand - I really appreciate your efforts. I hope you'll have enough will to help, when we actually complete the project - closer to christmas. I suppose, after christmas, concidering the holidays. Looking forward to working with you. )

UPD: And I'll be sure to reply to your post about the endings. And if you're interested in good games with an interesting storyline and not afraid of a rather insane gameplay - I'd recommend you to play Vangers: One For The Road - also a Russian game, that became a cult with an ending worth playing for, but with rather horrible gameplay. ) I think it's OK to download it now, since 10 years have passed and it definitely won't bring the devs any more money. (Penguin-chan, I hope you'll forgive me for this )

Hey, LxR Don't worry about the lack of replies - I know you're working hard on Tension!

Anyway, I do appreciate your warning about not playing the Devotress scenario yet. I was going to wait a while anyway. It was about 9 months between the time I played the Bachelor scenario, and the time I played as the Haruspicus. If the Devotress translation is as bad as you suggest, I'll definitely wait...

Hope Tension is going well! Good luck.

OK-OK. ) Just so you know that it's not that far from being done.
Yep. Expect a new trailer soon featuring all new never seen before stuff.

No worries about when teh translation project begins -- to be honest I can only dabble at the moment because I assign 20-page finals or class-long research projects to my students and they are coming due soon -- I will be buried myself, not with the joy of deadlines for coding, but for grading. I hope in the interim to infect (there goes those metaphors again) a few of my friends and maybe rope them into helping smooth the English as well; it would be fun to have a small American "team" of people who were friends and work well in other venues who could help the process, as I know the undertaking will be a massive one.

I look forward to the world of the Hausperix; I hope over Christmas I can play his scenario and see teh town from a different light.

Hydra -- Everyone has a right to different feelings of validation (or lack thereof) from different endings. I rememebr also how much I enjoyed plumbing the depths of the storyline in teh puzzle game "The Seventh Guest," but was utterly frustrated by some contradictory scripting elements that suggested two often different things -- I found the ending somewhat satisfying, but the fact that one character in the game seemed to have died twice in two very different ways I never quite got over. That said, I am glad you are finding the game easier to relate to even if you disagree with its "metastory" of children in the sandbox / players in a game.

LxR -- good fortune on Tension! Will it be in English as well or Russian only?

(Sorry if this is considered necroing. For the record, I’ve only finished the haruspicus scenario. I will certainly try the devotress once the translation update is made available.)

I don’t think the episode of the children and the sand-box was only meant to be taken as “breaking the fourth wall” and a trite call to appreciate the comparative value of “reality”. The whole game at this point seems rather to be involved in an acute critique of the entire surrounding gaming industry, its meagre scope and its lack of ambition. Remember that the character you’re playing and the environment you’re interacting with are not simply relegated at the level of fiction, but of “toys”, simple, ageless distractions aimed for children – dolls with predetermined roles (“you were always on the enemies’ side” they say of the haruspicus).

But it so happens that the children-authorities are interrupted in their innocent games by the advent of the real: the death of a close one, which foreshadow the end of their minority. Resentful as well as intrigued by this new element (death) in their lives, they invent a new game, and playfully organise the mass slaughter of their dolls. While at first it was devised as a sort of vengeance against the naivety of their earlier antics, or perhaps a child’s way of dealing with a new thought by integration into games, the added element completely disrupts the established roles: the dolls evolve and take a life of their own, the chaos and death visited upon them give them reality and the power of choice. In the end, it is your character that holds the key to the gameworld, a reversal of roles which confronts you not to the unreality of your actions, but their definitive empowerment. The fact that this is a “world-in-a-box” should not detract from this.

The LxR mentioned a manifesto some months ago. For my part I think this whole game is a manifesto for the maturation of the current gaming archetypes into a real artistic medium where choice and death are more than mechanics.

When I entered the sandbox area first time, I thought it's an easter egg or whatever. It's totally optional (unless you're a devotress), and I really had no such deep reflection upon its role in the game or "a game within a game" to be precise. Even taken as is, I consider it a simple symbol without any grand meaning, a performance of the "decision" effect. I remember myself at the age of those children and to tell the truth, I'd have been scared to death if one of my sandox toys adressed me, telling to leave the sandbox with its troubles be.

2GodlessXVIII: No problem with encroposting - the English forum is rather slow.
Thank you for your insightful reply - you got one of the main ideas right: the game was made from a manifesto and it turned out a manifesto to criticize the current gaming industry. But, of course, not only that.
I wish I could give a longer reply, but I have no spare time right now. Yet, I'd appreciate if you'd stick around - we can talk about it all this later.
Welcome to the forums!

bratt_n: Suit yourself, but the fact that, from day one, every single unnamed character in the town is depicted with a doll face during conversation should lead you to at least reconsider your initial impression, as it did me. And, at least in my game as the haruspicus, the sand-box depiction of the town is always present during the ending movies, no matter your final choice, as if to hammer the point home. I don't think it is meant merely as a light-hearted easter egg. It ties in much too nicely with one of the central theme of the game: manipulation.

The LxR: I don't doubt that Pathologic doesn't amount to one and only one interpretation. My post was only trying to address the sand-box episode from my point of view. I'd be curious to know if some aspects of my reading are shared by the original creators.

Thanks for the welcome!

Well, then check out my post above.

Yeah that wasn't my best phrasing. I wanted to know what 'main idea' I got right, as opposed to the vast majority I got wrong. For future reference, you understand.

More seriously, did you guys have some clear intention with that sand-box scene? Or are you not allowed to spoil the magic for us?

EDIT: If the fact that a manifesto motivated the creation of the game is the only 'main idea' I got right, then mine attempt at authorial reading is pretty piss-poor all around. I'll try to keep my day job.